Time Travelers

[Capcomplicated]

I've been a big fan of Time Travel ever since i played Final Fantasy VIII, it sparked my interest as a child enough to keep me interested long after i played the game. I'd say about 2 or 3 years ago i accidently came across a FASCINATING read about a man calling himself John Titor. He has connection to our history as early as 1998 and has created controversy and sparked many conversations based on his posts in 2000 and 2001. The reason i bring it up now is because i believe John Titor could have very well been a 100% legitimate Time Traveler, and i also think it will be interesting to see what you guys think about the story and get different opinions. Below will be links to the story and i recommend reading the entire thing before making a decision because it really is incredible, if not for the possibilities but the sociological and psychological implications that are ingrained inside the posts of others and the way we project ourselves. I have done extensive research and read a book on it which is equally fascinating but i submit that you do your own research to really amplify the meaning behind this whole phenominon. And then read and ask yourself or answer the same questions.

http://yesalover.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/the-original-post-of-john-titor/

Why is the Titor divergence website still operating?
Why was some of the information on the faxes omitted?
Why is there a patent for the Gravity Distortion Device (Who would go through all that trouble)
Why did he make obvious references to Alas Babylon, was it a joke to him because his future was so close to the book?
The entirety of his existance is based on having recorded information of his posts in our worldline. For what reasons? Just for conversation?
Did he have anything to do with the Y2K non-event?
When he went back to 1975 did he save us from it as being "Not a problem" in 2000?
The skyscrapper next to the favorite store of his that was missing in new york....was that a warning or just an observation by the future traveler?
Is the random cases of mystery diagnoses cases of vcjd?
Why did he know about the war in iraq 2 years before it happened?
Did he lie to protect us or for another alterior motive?
Was he lying to 'prove' he wasnt a time traveler for long term reasons?
How much proof is necessary before you believe a time traveler who alters time by showing up in it.
What makes any of us believe we know everything there is to know about space and time in our current demension?
I'm still currently on the fence about his validity but with physics, economy, and public consciousness the way it is today and for tomorrows sake i'm leaning toward the possibility that he is who he says he is.

Even if you think its complete zombie intrail vomit i dare you to convince me otherwise i'm interested in a debate, or at the very least a conversation.

 

[L]

I've read enough. This was posted in 2001 and claiming that in 2036 typewriters are widely used, especially now that we have a bunch of computer word processors, that it is a faker. He managed to put up a good argument. Some of those were idiotic. How could a single human being change 2.5% of the worlds timeline? I am not generally disagreeing with the existence of multiple worlds, possibly even a multiverse could exist. John Titor is just stupid though. I'll read more tonight.

 

[Capcomplicated]

I've read enough. This was posted in 2001 and claiming that in 2036 typewriters are widely used, especially now that we have a bunch of computer word processors, that it is a faker. He managed to put up a good argument. Some of those were idiotic. How could a single human being change 2.5% of the worlds timeline? I am not generally disagreeing with the existence of multiple worlds, possibly even a multiverse could exist. John Titor is just stupid though. I'll read more tonight.

But you have to understand John Titor also live through a collossal World War with the Russians bombing the '5' states of America, which was after the Civil War that was going on. So i would assume that within surviving a nuclear holocaust on such a massive scale that alot of the old archaic devices that changed the world at one point in history would now come back into the woodwork, Typewriters, Farming equipment, devices that stand alone without electricity.

As for the 2.5% divergence. Whos to say that a single person COULDN'T do so much variation especially a Time Travler knows a specific future. But i'm not suggesting that HE himself changed the timeline. If you read back over it you'll notice that the physics of the time machine causes a differential in the divergence. So the further you go back in time the less accurate it is to your original worldline zero divergence.

How do you suppose he is stupid though?

Thanks for posting and reading

 

[La Femme Fatale]

I'll be sharing my opinions in a bit, but first a quick question - if the world has underwent a nuclear holocaust and has gone back to using instruments from the dinosaur age... how did this fellow have the advanced enough technology available to be able to effectively time travel?

 

[Capcomplicated]

I'll be sharing my opinions in a bit, but first a quick question - if the world has underwent a nuclear holocaust and has gone back to using instruments from the dinosaur age... how did this fellow have the advanced enough technology available to be able to effectively time travel?

Very good question lol. The truth is i dont know. But the war ended in 2015 (according to his posts) and the first model i think was built a couple of years prior to his mission (i'll have to reread it) in 2036. So thats almost 20 years of rehabilitation, i'm assuming there was a coexistance of things of old and new.

Heres one of the faxes in 1998 (never actually atributed to John Titor, they just assumed because hes from 2036 and the correlations) the fax starts at the end of 16 and beginning of 17 and lasts a couple minutes after that.

Lol its fun just to listen to the whole thing, (from pt.1) Before O? lol Art Bell was great

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

All right, I'll entertain this. I love the idea of time travel and often think about it. I only read the first 10 or so posts, so I'm going to omit questions where I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you could link to the specific subject matter I would be more than happy to read up on it for the purpose of discussion. I'm going to edit in a YouTube video because this post just became gargantuan. Consider it the theme music of my post.

Honestly, I think the guy's full of it. Like anything else where someone makes an outrageous claim, he very skillfully avoids the burden of proof. Only using old machinery? There's no reason he would need to do such a thing. There are remnants of outdated computers floating around even today (for cheaper, I should add). When confronted with doubt, his rhetoric stinks of persuasion. Let me break it down.

Also, I realize there is no way for anyone to believe me with absolute certainty so I hope I’m at least entertaining. You may be interested to know that even in 2036, there are a large number of people who don’t believe in time travel. Are you sure the world is round?

Yes, it is entertaining. See where I underlined, he's cleverly rationalizing your doubt to make it seem less of a critical concern. This isn't what someone would say unless their goal was to persuade you. It's a tactic commonly used by cults to make potential members forget about their bad reputation and trust them.

Now the part which I have emboldened. Again, very persuasive rhetoric, though again it carries no real answer to the question. He's shifting the burden of proof to you. Because he would be found out by saying "well, how do you know time travel is impossible?" he does it through an analogy. Of course none of us are positive the world is round. The only people who can say they have seen it with their own eyes are a handful of astronauts.

And then someone points this out.

I visited your web page and it immediately struck me with those “photo’s” you claimed to have put there or made available or believe in… mind if I ask something to clear my logical thinking mind… Why is it, given that laser printers etc can print up to 2,400cpi, (or at least 600cpi) and pictures can be scanned at god only knows what (9,600+cpi) why your text and graphics appear to be 1950′s reproduction of a faint typewriter in need of a ribbon replacement (God I havn’t used the word ‘Ribbon’ since…. hmmm.) And then there’s the fact that given the obvious typewriter appearance, the ‘text’ sure wasn’t made in 2036.

His response, again avoiding the burden of proof, is
"Oh… please don’t use the “oh – technology went by the board by then.” approach cause it won’t stick. Please understand that I have examined time travel and parallel world theories extensively and therefore only seek to clarify these points with you."

The whole scenario of this guy not using his own website, using old technology, and avoiding the burden of proof is a fantastic way for him to take no responsibility for any tangible evidence that he is lying. There's another type of person who would fit this bill: someone with a love for old technology who wanted to have some fun on the internet.

Why is the Titor divergence website still operating?
Because it's a wordpress blog. Wordpress doesn't require you to pay any subscription fees so the website can remain online perpetually. If you mean his actual website (be nice to have a link to it in this thread somewhere) it isn't too hard to pay for a website. For one as simple and small as that one, it can't cost much more than a subscription to Netflix. He probably keeps it running because he isn't ready to let the joke die out yet.

Why was some of the information on the faxes omitted?
Again, please provide a specific link. I am not as familiar with all of this guy's supposed exploits as you are.

Why is there a patent for the Gravity Distortion Device (Who would go through all that trouble)
A patent does not reflect an intent to create something. I could patent a time travel machine today. All a patent does is give you the exclusive rights to commercial use. A patent for a gravity distortion device simply means that if someone were to invent one, the patent holder could stand to gain money off of anyone who attempts to build one and commercialize it.


The entirety of his existance is based on having recorded information of his posts in our worldline. For what reasons? Just for conversation?
I don't think that "recorded" is the correct word. The only word in the English language to describe it is a "prediction;" also synonymous with a "guess." He's creating the illusion of credibility by making predictions. The only way to tell if there will be another world war in 2015 is to wait until 2015 and see. When/if there isn't one, he can just as easily say "well, I stopped X, Y, and Z from happening so you all should be thanking me." Cult persuasion tactics. In the wild chance that he's spot on, only then will he have credibility.

Did he have anything to do with the Y2K non-event?
No. If Y2K was a legitimate averted disaster we would have evidence of it. There were experts on hand to look at it. It seemed like a missile crisis was at hand, but all that really would have happened was a lot of computer failure. So, at most, he saved us from our computers getting an error window because they didn't understand the date "00"? Thanks John, I guess.

When he went back to 1975 did he save us from it as being "Not a problem" in 2000?
I doubt it. Why 1975? There were tons of technological bounds, so couldn't he have just as easily done it in 1995 and succeeded? The trend in computer technology between now and then is immensely steep. They had been built and rebuilt under constant improvement. The basic code rewritten dozens of times for new generations of machines. I don't think you could fundamentally change anything in 1975 because anything you did would have been replaced as soon as the early 1980's. Furthermore, quantum physicists have determined that if you ever WERE to time travel, it would be impossible to "change" anything. It creates a paradox. A fundamental rule of traveling back in time is that nothing can be changed or else you would not have met the proper circumstances to travel in the first place.


The skyscraper next to the favorite store of his that was missing in new york....was that a warning or just an observation by the future traveler?
Neither. It's a tactic to seem credible. I could walk up to your house and say "gee, it sure is strange you haven't decided to build another story yet." Does that make me a time traveler? No. It's still most likely a clever act.

Why did he know about the war in Iraq 2 years before it happened?
Political theorists come and go. The war was predicted by more than a couple of them. Think about it. A knobhead takes up the US presidency, his Dad was president and wreaked havoc in the middle east, what's a W to do? Not too much of a stretch if you ask me. The way the US was playing the game with the middle east indicated that they NEEDED someone to give them a reason to go in full force. It's a political game. Like the one that Israel is playing right now. Provoke your enemy, make them throw the first punch, then obliterate them without being villified by the other nations.

How much proof is necessary before you believe a time traveler who alters time by showing up in it.
First, he needs to be able to handle the burden of proof. He needs to be able to explain how time travel works, how it was implemented on society, how he can travel back to his own time, in addition to making correct predictions. Simply claiming to be from the future, not bothering to explain anything, and painting a very vague picture of what the future is like does not qualify.

See, I just came here from heaven so I know this stuff. I can't tell you anything because the lord made me swear to keep certain secrets from his children. I can tell you that it's full of clouds, harp concerts, and hot naked babes, though. See where I'm going with this?

What makes any of us believe we know everything there is to know about space and time in our current dimension?
We don't. That's the beauty of science. Nothing is ever labeled as fact. Even the most tried scientific and physical laws are labeled as "theories" because they can always be challenged and rewritten. It's the theory of gravity, the theory of evolution; never the fact of anything. If he were to say we have it all wrong in what we know about the universe, then he's implying that he knows better. So out with it, man. If he is no student of science and removed from the burden of explaining anything, what makes him so sure that our way is wrong? If he received an education, he should at least be able to explain basic concepts that are true while ours are false.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

^ I agree.

I think Titor's writings are incredibly thought-provoking, intricately layered, and very well-researched hoaxes. Very well done, but little more than a story someone has taken great pains, effort, and time into crafting.

My biggest issue with his writing is his use of the infinite number of 'world-lines' - if I understand correctly, there's a different world-line for each thought we have entertained or something to that effect. While this does serve to be a relatively decent explanation, for me it is little more than a convenient theory to fallback upon when his 'predictions' fail to come to fruition. Most of his predictions have bombed - no civil war in 2004 and 2008, nuclear destruction has not devastated the US, and most starkly, the Olympics, which he claimed would be abolished, are still kicking. It seems to be a very easy 'get out of jail free' card to play when things don't exactly go your way. I mean, I suppose it's a relatively fair argument - but it doesn't really say anything, does it?

Yes, there were some claims he made that were on the money and I give him credit for that - most notably Iraq - but at the same time, I feel that anyone who is well-versed with Middle Eastern foreign relations could have made similar observations. It's not as if there Iraq had no history and Titor just came up with this stuff out of the blue.

I'm not saying it's true or false, I'm just saying I don't buy it.

 

[Capcomplicated]

Okay before I reply to anything I guess I should have made some previsions to my post. I’ll be more than happy to discuss my views on the subject but on the grand scale of a debate it may fall short unless there is someone who is actually on the fence on the subject. This subject matter is like trying to convince a Christian that everything in the bible is wrong or falsified and vise versa. Ultimately you’ve already made up in your head that John Titor is a hoax and are now ‘looking’ for the evidence instead of being ‘skeptical’ and looking at the evidence in any other way. But for entertainment purposes and the fact that I love the John Titor story so much I’d like to continue this interesting debate.


All right, I'll entertain this. I love the idea of time travel and often think about it. I only read the first 10 or so posts, so I'm going to omit questions where I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you could link to the specific subject matter I would be more than happy to read up on it for the purpose of discussion. I'm going to edit in a YouTube video because this post just became gargantuan. Consider it the theme music of my post.
If you do have a love for time travel why discount its validity after 10 posts? Why not read through just on sheer interest alone? If people just read Genesis and put it down they wouldn’t even know the good parts. That’s no way to form a true opinion in my humble opinion


Honestly, I think the guy's full of it. Like anything else where someone makes an outrageous claim, he very skillfully avoids the burden of proof. Only using old machinery? There's no reason he would need to do such a thing. There are remnants of outdated computers floating around even today (for cheaper, I should add). When confronted with doubt, his rhetoric stinks of persuasion. Let me break it down.
.” Only using old machinery? There's no reason he would need to do such a thing. There are remnants of outdated computers floating around even today (for cheaper, I should add).”
What do you mean by this statement?
As for his rhetoric. How would you compose yourself to the hounds of public knowledge and arrogance at the time if you were a time traveler. I feel his objective is simple as it refers to his posts. A simple discussion. But the real reason he was here in 2000/2001 remains a mystery. Other than being there with his family. He stated that he was interested in this time, its people, art, politics, etc. But I believe that the John that wrote in 2000/2001 lived through a y2k event that drastically changed his world from that point (and that could be why we see so many changes)

Also, I realize there is no way for anyone to believe me with absolute certainty so I hope I’m at least entertaining. You may be interested to know that even in 2036, there are a large number of people who don’t believe in time travel. Are you sure the world is round?

Yes, it is entertaining. See where I underlined, he's cleverly rationalizing your doubt to make it seem less of a critical concern. This isn't what someone would say unless their goal was to persuade you. It's a tactic commonly used by cults to make potential members forget about their bad reputation and trust them.

Now the part which I have emboldened. Again, very persuasive rhetoric, though again it carries no real answer to the question. He's shifting the burden of proof to you. Because he would be found out by saying "well, how do you know time travel is impossible?" he does it through an analogy. Of course none of us are positive the world is round. The only people who can say they have seen it with their own eyes are a handful of astronauts.
If you had a position and a title behind your name would you not stand for its validity. His personal goals are different from his actual goals (unknown) Maybe he did want set the record straight for time travelers. Reading into the subtext is a double-edged sword. Also all of his posts will stink of persuasion because he intentially answers everyones questions about the future, underlying the inherent nature of his position as a time traveler

And then someone points this out.

I visited your web page and it immediately struck me with those “photo’s” you claimed to have put there or made available or believe in… mind if I ask something to clear my logical thinking mind… Why is it, given that laser printers etc can print up to 2,400cpi, (or at least 600cpi) and pictures can be scanned at god only knows what (9,600+cpi) why your text and graphics appear to be 1950′s reproduction of a faint typewriter in need of a ribbon replacement (God I havn’t used the word ‘Ribbon’ since…. hmmm.) And then there’s the fact that given the obvious typewriter appearance, the ‘text’ sure wasn’t made in 2036.

His response, again avoiding the burden of proof, is
"Oh… please don’t use the “oh – technology went by the board by then.” approach cause it won’t stick. Please understand that I have examined time travel and parallel world theories extensively and therefore only seek to clarify these points with you."

The whole scenario of this guy not using his own website, using old technology, and avoiding the burden of proof is a fantastic way for him to take no responsibility for any tangible evidence that he is lying. There's another type of person who would fit this bill: someone with a love for old technology who wanted to have some fun on the internet.

According to his posts, not everyone uses old technology. It just so happens to be more prevalent than it is now. He also stated that he used a Polaroid from our time not his. Also the burden of proof is subjective. I think there are several instances of ‘proof’ that get overlooked like the Iraq war and Mad Cow disease just to name a couple because, again, you’re fighting it as a debunker rather than a skeptic.

Why is the Titor divergence website still operating?
Because it's a wordpress blog. Wordpress doesn't require you to pay any subscription fees so the website can remain online perpetually. If you mean his actual website (be nice to have a link to it in this thread somewhere) it isn't too hard to pay for a website. For one as simple and small as that one, it can't cost much more than a subscription to Netflix. He probably keeps it running because he isn't ready to let the joke die out yet.

I was actually referring to this website http://www.johntitorfoundation.com/ sorry I should have put this in the original post (but I like leaving things out ) It just seems way to complex to be a joke.

 

[Capcomplicated]

Why was some of the information on the faxes omitted?
Again, please provide a specific link. I am not as familiar with all of this guy's supposed exploits as you are.

They are above in the edited post

Why is there a patent for the Gravity Distortion Device (Who would go through all that trouble)
A patent does not reflect an intent to create something. I could patent a time travel machine today. All a patent does is give you the exclusive rights to commercial use. A patent for a gravity distortion device simply means that if someone were to invent one, the patent holder could stand to gain money off of anyone who attempts to build one and commercialize it.

But if you look at the patent, its extremely well organized and extremely well written. Especially from a physics point of view. Why go through all that trouble? Its either a big fan, John, or a friend or relative of Johns


The entirety of his existance is based on having recorded information of his posts in our worldline. For what reasons? Just for conversation?
I don't think that "recorded" is the correct word. The only word in the English language to describe it is a "prediction;" also synonymous with a "guess." He's creating the illusion of credibility by making predictions. The only way to tell if there will be another world war in 2015 is to wait until 2015 and see. When/if there isn't one, he can just as easily say "well, I stopped X, Y, and Z from happening so you all should be thanking me." Cult persuasion tactics. In the wild chance that he's spot on, only then will he have credibility.

I think you misread my post here. Its not the best worded sentence ive ever written so I apologize. I believe that he came here not just for his family or to have conversation. But to have documented evidence of his existence. For what purpose? I Have no idea. He also said there may be other Johns here, so maybe for them?

As for the prediction statement. John never in his posts said he was making predictions. We use that word because it feels comfortable to us. If you look at the entire story you’ll see that there is a guy John that tells us of his future. And you can pull things from his story that definitely didn’t come true and say “There it is…PROOF!” but as you’ve hinted yourself, its unfalsifiable, based on what he says about time and how it works. However there is MUCH MUCH more than “predicted events” that provide ‘proof’for John. His knowledge of the UNIX system and infinitesimal details about the IBM 5100 in regard to the language and no internal clock (Information IBM knew about but kept secret especially as early as 2001). The physics explained in detail about his machine. His demeanor in the entirety of his posts. And a lot more small but crucial details like these that go overlooked.
Did he have anything to do with the Y2K non-event?
No. If Y2K was a legitimate averted disaster we would have evidence of it. There were experts on hand to look at it. It seemed like a missile crisis was at hand, but all that really would have happened was a lot of computer failure. So, at most, he saved us from our computers getting an error window because they didn't understand the date "00"? Thanks John, I guess.

I don’t think you can say 100% that you know for sure on anything. Yea you might have some strong sense of clarity and extreme hunches. But not everything is as open and shut as we’d like it to be. And yes I’m aware that this goes against my point of my original post, but my point is theres a chance.

When he went back to 1975 did he save us from it as being "Not a problem" in 2000?
I doubt it. Why 1975? There were tons of technological bounds, so couldn't he have just as easily done it in 1995 and succeeded? The trend in computer technology between now and then is immensely steep. They had been built and rebuilt under constant improvement. The basic code rewritten dozens of times for new generations of machines. I don't think you could fundamentally change anything in 1975 because anything you did would have been replaced as soon as the early 1980's. Furthermore, quantum physicists have determined that if you ever WERE to time travel, it would be impossible to "change" anything. It creates a paradox. A fundamental rule of traveling back in time is that nothing can be changed or else you would not have met the proper circumstances to travel in the first place.

I strongly suggest you read the whole thing. The paradox as you mention doesn’t happen in his explaination of time. And the reason for his mission to 1975 were described in detail about the importance of the 5100. If you really are interested in time travel this should be an easy read. If you have an open mind.

 

[Capcomplicated]

The skyscraper next to the favorite store of his that was missing in new york....was that a warning or just an observation by the future traveler?
Neither. It's a tactic to seem credible. I could walk up to your house and say "gee, it sure is strange you haven't decided to build another story yet." Does that make me a time traveler? No. It's still most likely a clever act.

It seems to be too cryptic for my taste. Why even mention New York at all? Why mention the fact that a skyscraper was missing? There are thousands of skycrappers in New York. He specifically mentioned that a skyscraper was missing in a favorite store of his. That was the only part of the ‘differing worlds’ discourse that mentioned something specific. But then again this fax may have not been John Titor at all…but I doubt it. When I say ‘differing worlds’ I’m referring to the specific part of the fax that is after “interesting results of this are…” not the entire fax

Why did he know about the war in Iraq 2 years before it happened?
Political theorists come and go. The war was predicted by more than a couple of them. Think about it. A knobhead takes up the US presidency, his Dad was president and wreaked havoc in the middle east, what's a W to do? Not too much of a stretch if you ask me. The way the US was playing the game with the middle east indicated that they NEEDED someone to give them a reason to go in full force. It's a political game. Like the one that Israel is playing right now. Provoke your enemy, make them throw the first punch, then obliterate them without being villified by the other nations.

Can you cite some of the people that predicted the war circa 2000/2001 This would help your case. A lot of the people in the room disagreed with John in that regard.

How much proof is necessary before you believe a time traveler who alters time by showing up in it.
First, he needs to be able to handle the burden of proof. He needs to be able to explain how time travel works, how it was implemented on society, how he can travel back to his own time, in addition to making correct predictions. Simply claiming to be from the future, not bothering to explain anything, and painting a very vague picture of what the future is like does not qualify.

See, I just came here from heaven so I know this stuff. I can't tell you anything because the lord made me swear to keep certain secrets from his children. I can tell you that it's full of clouds, harp concerts, and hot naked babes, though. See where I'm going with this?

He actually did explain how it works. Lets say for example though you are a time traveler: All of John Titor time and physics withstanding. And in this example you want people to believe you. How do you convince someone or a group of people that you are a time traveler over the internet. Do you tell them a date that could change by merely stating the date. And then so you tell them the date and it comes true, what then? Do people believe you? Not likely, psychic maybe, future theorist probably. If it doesn’t come true then you as the time traveler have altered time (interesting) and your left with your unprophetic horsesh*t that is now DEBUNKED. I say theres much more than dates and times for a time traveler to ‘prove’ themselves. After all time isn’t set in stone right? Or do we know everything there is to know about time and space.

What makes any of us believe we know everything there is to know about space and time in our current dimension?
We don't. That's the beauty of science. Nothing is ever labeled as fact. Even the most tried scientific and physical laws are labeled as "theories" because they can always be challenged and rewritten. It's the theory of gravity, the theory of evolution; never the fact of anything. If he were to say we have it all wrong in what we know about the universe, then he's implying that he knows better. So out with it, man. If he is no student of science and removed from the burden of explaining anything, what makes him so sure that our way is wrong? If he received an education, he should at least be able to explain basic concepts that are true while ours are false.

He did in his posts.
Wow that was awesome thankyou for taking the time to post everything you did and I hope I made some sense of your questions. Even though I don’t think they were questions of resolution I think they were questions of absolution…but its okay mine are too in a way J
Sorry for the triple post but i didnt see a way around it with the word cap

 

[Capcomplicated]

^ I agree.

I think Titor's writings are incredibly thought-provoking, intricately layered, and very well-researched hoaxes. Very well done, but little more than a story someone has taken great pains, effort, and time into crafting.

My biggest issue with his writing is his use of the infinite number of 'world-lines' - if I understand correctly, there's a different world-line for each thought we have entertained or something to that effect. While this does serve to be a relatively decent explanation, for me it is little more than a convenient theory to fallback upon when his 'predictions' fail to come to fruition. Most of his predictions have bombed - no civil war in 2004 and 2008, nuclear destruction has not devastated the US, and most starkly, the Olympics, which he claimed would be abolished, are still kicking. It seems to be a very easy 'get out of jail free' card to play when things don't exactly go your way. I mean, I suppose it's a relatively fair argument - but it doesn't really say anything, does it?

Yes, there were some claims he made that were on the money and I give him credit for that - most notably Iraq - but at the same time, I feel that anyone who is well-versed with Middle Eastern foreign relations could have made similar observations. It's not as if there Iraq had no history and Titor just came up with this stuff out of the blue.

I'm not saying it's true or false, I'm just saying I don't buy it.

I dont like to think of them as predictions because that implies that our future most definitely 100% percent leads to his. Based on his definition of time and space there is no real linear 'path' to the future. However i do understand that yes its nice to have that "Well...theres a divergence" in your back pocket for a hoaxers sake. But if you look at it from a physists point of view, albiet convenient, it makes sense to me. If you look at theoretical physics today theres a lot of disection between theories as of late. Like i said before theres just too much intelligence and mysticism to this for me to believe it was a hoax. If i were to believe it was one, i would believe it was a group of people before i would it was just one person. The knowledge spectrum is too wide for me.

I agree with you though it is very thought provoking. If it is fake, what a well crafted intelligent fascinating fake. I would say well done to John Titor because no one has done what he did to the extreme that he did it at.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

Is Titor religious?

 

[Capcomplicated]

Is Titor religious?

"After the reality of multiple worlds sank into our
collective thought, the one basic change to all religious dogma is the
concept that good and evil does not exist as an organized force in our
lives nor can it be used as a useful way to judge what God may think of
a situation. Good and evil are personal experiences that can only guide
what we do as individuals and how we relate to others. This outlook
also makes it impossible for me to judge any other person or event. We
cannot see the entire universe as God sees it therefore we will never
be Gods or be capable of judging anything outside of ourselves. My
actions can only be judged as good and bad by me and my God."

"Yes, I believe in organized evil. It would sure be easier to carry
out an “evil” plan if no one beloved you existed. Just curious, can
anyone tell me what “Satan” really means?"

"Also, regarding your view on the afterlife. I also think that it is a
mystery to unravel. That it is information, awareness, state of mind
and experience that leads to enlightenment and the experience of God.
Deeds and Dogma just don’t do it. As our awareness broadens doing the
right thing is what comes naturally (more often, anyway!)If it is based
on someone else’s idea of right it is a shallow and sporatic endeavor.
Religion must be experiential or it has no staying power (and probably
not enough compassion or tolerance)."

I dont remember him specifically saying otherwise but i think he's 'generally spiritual' But i assume thats a loaded question.

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

Okay before I reply to anything I guess I should have made some previsions to my post. I’ll be more than happy to discuss my views on the subject but on the grand scale of a debate it may fall short unless there is someone who is actually on the fence on the subject. This subject matter is like trying to convince a Christian that everything in the bible is wrong or falsified and vise versa. Ultimately you’ve already made up in your head that John Titor is a hoax and are now ‘looking’ for the evidence instead of being ‘skeptical’ and looking at the evidence in any other way. But for entertainment purposes and the fact that I love the John Titor story so much I’d like to continue this interesting debate.

This is the same vein of being convincing without proving anything as the bible, but not quite as much as an extreme. I want you to know that I'm being perfectly skeptical. What I have not been is cynical. I went in, read some of what he had to say, and carefully weighed which solution was more likely to be true. Just because I reached a different conclusion than you does not mean I didn't entertain going into this with an open mind.

.” Only using old machinery? There's no reason he would need to do such a thing. There are remnants of outdated computers floating around even today (for cheaper, I should add).”
What do you mean by this statement?

I was reading the blog you posted and he claimed that he was traveling back in time for old computer parts. There is no reason he would need to go back to when those old machines were being made because they can still be found today.

As for his rhetoric. How would you compose yourself to the hounds of public knowledge and arrogance at the time if you were a time traveler. I feel his objective is simple as it refers to his posts. A simple discussion. But the real reason he was here in 2000/2001 remains a mystery. Other than being there with his family. He stated that he was interested in this time, its people, art, politics, etc. But I believe that the John that wrote in 2000/2001 lived through a y2k event that drastically changed his world from that point (and that could be why we see so many changes)

Oh, a "hound of public knowledge and arrogance" am I?

Well, that depends on if I'm a real time traveler or someone who is pretending to be one. If I were a real time traveler, I would at least have clothing or apparel or something in my pockets from when I left the future. I would start building proof there. If I was a fake time traveler I would still have all of the persuasive arguments but no proof. No fact. Every aspect of my story needing to be taken on faith. I understand that this whole thing is constructed/exists in such a way that there's no way to question it, but when I ask myself which of the two is more likely I think you know what my conclusion is.
Want to see someone who really did the public hoax thing in style? Bobby Henderson.

If you had a position and a title behind your name would you not stand for its validity. His personal goals are different from his actual goals (unknown) Maybe he did want set the record straight for time travelers. Reading into the subtext is a double-edged sword. Also all of his posts will stink of persuasion because he intentially answers everyones questions about the future, underlying the inherent nature of his position as a time traveler

Not sure what you meant by that emboldened part. It's not much of a double-edged sword, really. All that there is to find is that everything he says is conjecture, persuasive speech, and logical fallacies. He's especially fond of cherry picking, false analogies, straw men, and red herrings. I get that it's all very mysterious and all when taken as true. The only issue is that a little bit of skepticism would answer that question; not in the way you would like, though.

According to his posts, not everyone uses old technology. It just so happens to be more prevalent than it is now. He also stated that he used a Polaroid from our time not his. Also the burden of proof is subjective. I think there are several instances of ‘proof’ that get overlooked like the Iraq war and Mad Cow disease just to name a couple because, again, you’re fighting it as a debunker rather than a skeptic.

I think we need to work on your definition of what a skeptic is. A skeptic questions everything and attempts to make a logical conclusion through the maximum level of critical thinking they are capable of. I'm a Journalism student. I literally practice skepticism every day. It's in the nature of the work.

I agree. The burden of proof is subjective. I say that his story defies everything we know about time and space, including what Stephen Hawking, the smartest man alive, says. I say that every part of his story is constructed to either persuade without hard evidence or to explain the lack of said evidence.

But if you look at the patent, its extremely well organized and extremely well written. Especially from a physics point of view. Why go through all that trouble? Its either a big fan, John, or a friend or relative of Johns

All patents are. They are legal documents that need to be highly specific and detailed. It's not a question of "why go to all the trouble?" because every patent requires that level of depth. It's not easy.

The entirety of his existance is based on having recorded information of his posts in our worldline. For what reasons? Just for conversation?

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I think you misread my post here. Its not the best worded sentence ive ever written so I apologize. I believe that he came here not just for his family or to have conversation. But to have documented evidence of his existence. For what purpose? I Have no idea. He also said there may be other Johns here, so maybe for them?

Again, judging this on his terms leaves it a mystery, but from what I'm putting forth it makes perfect sense. Because he's just some guy who's trying to have some fun on the internet.

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

Sorry for the double post. Character count, na mean?

As for the prediction statement. John never in his posts said he was making predictions. We use that word because it feels comfortable to us. If you look at the entire story you’ll see that there is a guy John that tells us of his future. And you can pull things from his story that definitely didn’t come true and say “There it is…PROOF!” but as you’ve hinted yourself, its unfalsifiable, based on what he says about time and how it works. However there is MUCH MUCH more than “predicted events” that provide ‘proof’for John. His knowledge of the UNIX system and infinitesimal details about the IBM 5100 in regard to the language and no internal clock (Information IBM knew about but kept secret especially as early as 2001). The physics explained in detail about his machine. His demeanor in the entirety of his posts. And a lot more small but crucial details like these that go overlooked.

He doesn't call them predictions? Really? They're under a category labeled "predictions" on his site.
As for his demeanor, that's what being a writer is all about; creating a sense of identity. I could claim that we all live in the Matrix, would you have any solid hard evidence that I'm wrong? Just because something can't be disproven does not make it proven. His knowledge of these things is interesting, yes, but he's demonstrated an aptitude for technology. He could very easily have worked for IBM and leaked it, or gotten into their database. There are plenty of tangible explanations that should be considered before considering that it's because he's a time traveler.

I don’t think you can say 100% that you know for sure on anything. Yea you might have some strong sense of clarity and extreme hunches. But not everything is as open and shut as we’d like it to be. And yes I’m aware that this goes against my point of my original post, but my point is theres a chance.

A chance, yes. I'll give you that. But there is a greater chance that the much more plausible explanations that are grounded in what we know about people and what they do on the internet that should be disproven first. That's the nature of skepticism and scientific reasoning. You examine the most logical explanations before you consider the highly unlikely.

I strongly suggest you read the whole thing. The paradox as you mention doesn’t happen in his explaination of time. And the reason for his mission to 1975 were described in detail about the importance of the 5100. If you really are interested in time travel this should be an easy read. If you have an open mind.

I don't have the time, interest, or energy to read through everything. You could turn around and say "well, your opinion is void, then." but from what I've seen and my opinions on that, I'm confident that my conclusions are sound. If you have something you'd like to bring up, please link to the specific source and I would be happy to read up on it if it is relevant to the discussion. I'm a busy man and I have things that I need to spend my time on becoming scholarly about. Things that take precedence over what I choose to read up on and/or debate in my spare time.

It seems to be too cryptic for my taste. Why even mention New York at all? Why mention the fact that a skyscraper was missing? There are thousands of skycrappers in New York. He specifically mentioned that a skyscraper was missing in a favorite store of his. That was the only part of the ‘differing worlds’ discourse that mentioned something specific. But then again this fax may have not been John Titor at all…but I doubt it. When I say ‘differing worlds’ I’m referring to the specific part of the fax that is after “interesting results of this are…” not the entire fax

It's not that profound. If I were to do what I believe he is doing I would probably try something similar. Part of what would be necessary to complete the persona of a time traveler is to pretend to notice differences such as this one. You keep using the word "fax" and I'm starting to think you aren't referring to what a fax machine sends. Could you please link me to this?

Can you cite some of the people that predicted the war circa 2000/2001 This would help your case. A lot of the people in the room disagreed with John in that regard.

I'm no scholar on the issue, my point is that it wasn't horribly profound. I don't really pay attention to political theorists but if I meet anyone who does, I'll be more than happy to revisit this with a few sources.

He actually did explain how it works. Lets say for example though you are a time traveler: All of John Titor time and physics withstanding. And in this example you want people to believe you. How do you convince someone or a group of people that you are a time traveler over the internet. Do you tell them a date that could change by merely stating the date. And then so you tell them the date and it comes true, what then? Do people believe you? Not likely, psychic maybe, future theorist probably. If it doesn’t come true then you as the time traveler have altered time (interesting) and your left with your unprophetic horsesh*t that is now DEBUNKED. I say theres much more than dates and times for a time traveler to ‘prove’ themselves. After all time isn’t set in stone right? Or do we know everything there is to know about time and space.

From what we know, traveling forward and backward in time is possible, though it will be highly difficult. We DO have ideas about how to do it, beginning with Einstein and continuing up to Hawking. It is highly unlikely that in a mere 25 years we'll be able to do it. There are parts to the time machine that only exist in theoretical physics that we have never actually seen, but think exist. What we DO know is that these abstract theories fit with new findings as well as the most fundamental laws such as gravity. I can tell you that his whole "worldline" theory is not horribly profound. It's essentially an explanation of what we call the 5th dimension. The problem with this is that the brightest minds alive today say that such a thing is impossible because though we can travel back in time, we can not change anything else we would change the circumstances that led to us traveling back in time to begin with.

What makes any of us believe we know everything there is to know about space and time in our current dimension?

One word: science. Science begins with observing what is obvious and known to be true, then builds on those facts through higher observation and understanding. We may never see photons, radiation, or other subatomic particles with our own eyes, but the equipment we build lets us know that they exist. We can still see them and understand them. All of the physical laws are heavily intertwined and considered to be true based on what questions it answers and how well it fits with preexisting laws. To come in all of a sudden and proclaim it all to be false is an affront to all the work and careful consideration that led to their existence.

Wow that was awesome thankyou for taking the time to post everything you did and I hope I made some sense of your questions. Even though I don’t think they were questions of resolution I think they were questions of absolution…but its okay mine are too in a way J
Sorry for the triple post but i didnt see a way around it with the word cap

I wouldn't have posted unless I had made up my own mind first. You are free to think what you like, as am I, but I wouldn't want to draw a conclusion on something like this based on the words of someone else. I hope you still feel like keeping this discussion alive and choose to respond to this post.

 

[Capcomplicated]

He doesn't call them predictions? Really? They're under a category labeled "predictions" on his site.
As for his demeanor, that's what being a writer is all about; creating a sense of identity. I could claim that we all live in the Matrix, would you have any solid hard evidence that I'm wrong? Just because something can't be disproven does not make it proven. His knowledge of these things is interesting, yes, but he's demonstrated an aptitude for technology. He could very easily have worked for IBM and leaked it, or gotten into their database. There are plenty of tangible explanations that should be considered before considering that it's because he's a time traveler.

He never called them predictions he only said them under quotes because other people referred to them as that. And for his Demeanor i was referring to how calm and lucid he was in all of his posts. And you also have to consider all of the posts to acknoledge the statement, not only the posts but the time they were posted in. 2001. Everyone remembers dial-up it would have taken an hour just for a small picture to show up on screen. The information he had on the 5100 was striking because of all the other information he gave. He gave us several things about his future and politics some of which have come into fruition. He basically told us about Youtube and what a Segway was 4 years and almost a year before they existed respectively. Not only that but gave us the raw physics of how his time machine works which is still being debated on to this day on its functionality. Physics that a lamens couldnt' have known. So this IBM guy who also was proficient in physics and theoretical future also had forknowledge of the coming War in iraq and mad cow desease. Also you have to consider that information on the IBM was literally known to about 12 people at the time and did their best to erase the 5100 from its pallette. Honestly a Time traveler seems more realistic than to say he was an out and out genius with knowledge in all of these subjects and to be a fiction writer? I just dont see it. But then again i cant prove he was either...thats what i find so interesting.

I don't have the time, interest, or energy to read through everything. You could turn around and say "well, your opinion is void, then." but from what I've seen and my opinions on that, I'm confident that my conclusions are sound. If you have something you'd like to bring up, please link to the specific source and I would be happy to read up on it if it is relevant to the discussion. I'm a busy man and I have things that I need to spend my time on becoming scholarly about. Things that take precedence over what I choose to read up on and/or debate in my spare time.

To quote our beloved Matrix 'If you never take time, how can you ever have time' I dont honestly see the logic behind reading 10 pages of a masterpiece (like say, the bible) and claim to have a sound conclusion. It just doesnt make sense to me. As for finding it interesting, i dont believe you're truely interested in time travel if you dont give this a sincere effort. Were all busy and that can make things getting done difficult. But what we do in our spare time makes us who we are. I dont feel like this debate really will amount to anything if both parties arent interested in it. I also dont want to take the time to post every point and paticular with a website or quote. So i guess were both at an end pass lol.

It's not that profound. If I were to do what I believe he is doing I would probably try something similar. Part of what would be necessary to complete the persona of a time traveler is to pretend to notice differences such as this one. You keep using the word "fax" and I'm starting to think you aren't referring to what a fax machine sends. Could you please link me to this?

You make it sound easy to do what John did, but i can assure its not....not in the least. Maybe to make a couple of 'predictions' and tell of a fictional future.....but the massive amount of information he left (even in subtext) is way too complex for me to pass over as a smart dude who just wants recognition. The fax i'm referring to again is the 5th post down in this discussion with the video of Art Bell its from the 1998 archives.

From what we know, traveling forward and backward in time is possible, though it will be highly difficult. We DO have ideas about how to do it, beginning with Einstein and continuing up to Hawking. It is highly unlikely that in a mere 25 years we'll be able to do it. There are parts to the time machine that only exist in theoretical physics that we have never actually seen, but think exist. What we DO know is that these abstract theories fit with new findings as well as the most fundamental laws such as gravity. I can tell you that his whole "worldline" theory is not horribly profound. It's essentially an explanation of what we call the 5th dimension. The problem with this is that the brightest minds alive today say that such a thing is impossible because though we can travel back in time, we can not change anything else we would change the circumstances that led to us traveling back in time to begin with.

I'm not gonna say i know everything about the physics of how his time machine works or really how he describes how time works in the first place. But is it really so hard to believe that 25 years from now we might actually break that code? If you look at the history of technology and physics the level of ingenuity and time of its inception are almost exponential. With bright minds like Michio Kaku and Hawking, i would say we might even have it in less time unbeknownest to the public eye. The fact that it may be highly unlikely doesnt negate its future from possibility. There are tons of highly unlikely scenarios that happen every day. You make it sound like you have a firm grasp on theoretical physics and the future of that endeavor. I dont mean to be harsh or in my statements i just wanted to get my points across as much as possible so please dont take offense.

One word: science. Science begins with observing what is obvious and known to be true, then builds on those facts through higher observation and understanding. We may never see photons, radiation, or other subatomic particles with our own eyes, but the equipment we build lets us know that they exist. We can still see them and understand them. All of the physical laws are heavily intertwined and considered to be true based on what questions it answers and how well it fits with preexisting laws. To come in all of a sudden and proclaim it all to be false is an affront to all the work and careful consideration that led to their existence.

He never claimed that any laws were false, all of the laws of gravity, inertia, etc. still apply. He's talking about physics, einsteins theory is still just that a theory. Even today physists are at wits end trying to pin point the 'right' one on how our universe operates using string theory, M-theory, supersymmetry, etc.

As for the actual mystery behind the man, we may never know. I choose to believe until i have sufficient evidence otherwise which hasnt been presented to me. As i assume is the same case for you. However you can't deny its ingenious qualities and legacy. No one has ever done what he did since...atleast not to my knowledge. I'll say hands down one of the best stories i've come across.
I didnt want to come in here and rip you open pull your heart out make a small incision and place a highly volatile vile of hydrocloric acid then place it back inside you. That wasnt my intention so please dont take it that way. The point of everything is to say my side of the story as the way i percieve it and nothing more. However i doubt i will continue if theres no interest.

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

He never called them predictions he only said them under quotes because other people referred to them as that. And for his Demeanor i was referring to how calm and lucid he was in all of his posts. And you also have to consider all of the posts to acknoledge the statement, not only the posts but the time they were posted in. 2001. Everyone remembers dial-up it would have taken an hour just for a small picture to show up on screen. The information he had on the 5100 was striking because of all the other information he gave. He gave us several things about his future and politics some of which have come into fruition. He basically told us about Youtube and what a Segway was 4 years and almost a year before they existed respectively. Not only that but gave us the raw physics of how his time machine works which is still being debated on to this day on its functionality. Physics that a lamens couldnt' have known. So this IBM guy who also was proficient in physics and theoretical future also had forknowledge of the coming War in iraq and mad cow desease. Also you have to consider that information on the IBM was literally known to about 12 people at the time and did their best to erase the 5100 from its pallette. Honestly a Time traveler seems more realistic than to say he was an out and out genius with knowledge in all of these subjects and to be a fiction writer? I just dont see it. But then again i cant prove he was either...thats what i find so interesting.

You make some interesting points with these things that he knew about ahead of time, but are his website and discussion boards the only sources you got that information from? There are a lot of things in the technological world that are publicly available long before they become public knowledge. I remember back in 2002 I found a video of a motion controlled video game of Super Mario being played in the 1st person. Little did I know that it was a prototype for the oh-so-famous Nintendo Wii that would be released four years later in 2006. What happened to Mario in the 1st person? It was probably scrapped like Milo was for Kinect.

To quote our beloved Matrix 'If you never take time, how can you ever have time' I dont honestly see the logic behind reading 10 pages of a masterpiece (like say, the bible) and claim to have a sound conclusion. It just doesnt make sense to me. As for finding it interesting, i dont believe you're truely interested in time travel if you dont give this a sincere effort. Were all busy and that can make things getting done difficult. But what we do in our spare time makes us who we are. I dont feel like this debate really will amount to anything if both parties arent interested in it. I also dont want to take the time to post every point and paticular with a website or quote. So i guess were both at an end pass lol.

Trust me, I've read more than 10 pages of the Bible. I was raised in a Jewish community and studied it extensively up until my Bar-Mitzvah at age 13. I know the bible very well, and feel that I'm making an informed decision when I say that I don't think there is anything to take away from it apart from a basic human moral code and perhaps a life lesson or two. As for this debate, I don't really see how it could amount to much more than casual (though lengthy) discussion. I would hope you might understand that this thing you've brought up for discussion has massive amounts of source material. It would literally take me a week of near-constant research to cover it all, read enough from both sides of the argument, and know every little reference to anything he's ever said. If that can't be appreciated, I guess we are at an impasse. Maybe my expectations from the kind of work I've been doing have clouded my judgement, but I figured you would be willing to cite sources as you introduced topics. Sorry if I was mistaken.

You make it sound easy to do what John did, but i can assure its not....not in the least. Maybe to make a couple of 'predictions' and tell of a fictional future.....but the massive amount of information he left (even in subtext) is way too complex for me to pass over as a smart dude who just wants recognition. The fax i'm referring to again is the 5th post down in this discussion with the video of Art Bell its from the 1998 archives.

Easy? No. A simple process but a lot of work. Putting the amount of work and time that he did would require everything you mentioned regardless of if he were from the future or not. I'm sure education hasn't been so perfected between now and then that everyone is knowledgeable in every field and a good writer to boot.

I'm not gonna say i know everything about the physics of how his time machine works or really how he describes how time works in the first place. But is it really so hard to believe that 25 years from now we might actually break that code? If you look at the history of technology and physics the level of ingenuity and time of its inception are almost exponential. With bright minds like Michio Kaku and Hawking, i would say we might even have it in less time unbeknownest to the public eye. The fact that it may be highly unlikely doesnt negate its future from possibility. There are tons of highly unlikely scenarios that happen every day. You make it sound like you have a firm grasp on theoretical physics and the future of that endeavor. I dont mean to be harsh or in my statements i just wanted to get my points across as much as possible so please dont take offense.

He never claimed that any laws were false, all of the laws of gravity, inertia, etc. still apply. He's talking about physics, einsteins theory is still just that a theory. Even today physists are at wits end trying to pin point the 'right' one on how our universe operates using string theory, M-theory, supersymmetry, etc.

I find it incredibly hard to believe personally, but the answer to that question is very subjective. Can I say for sure? No. But you're the last person here I would expect to say that it would make me wrong. I don't claim to have a firm grasp, I'm not a science scholar. What I do know is that while our technology is making leaps and bounds, really new and innovative technology is not. Sure, we're making more complex computer chips and programs, but the last true innovation was probably as far back as the computer. What we're doing these days is improving and expanding upon something that has been around for a (relatively) long time. A time machine will, in all likelihood, not be next but feel free to wag your finger and say that I can't say that with absolute certainty. You caught me. I can't.

Don't hold back. If there's anything I can't stand, it's a debate where people waste time sugar-coating everything. I can take some blunt language, and I hope you can too. I don't get to take my gloves off for this sort of thing very often, though I will never devolve into saying anything mean-spirited or insulting.

As for the actual mystery behind the man, we may never know. I choose to believe until i have sufficient evidence otherwise which hasnt been presented to me. As i assume is the same case for you. However you can't deny its ingenious qualities and legacy. No one has ever done what he did since...atleast not to my knowledge. I'll say hands down one of the best stories i've come across.
I didnt want to come in here and rip you open pull your heart out make a small incision and place a highly volatile vile of hydrocloric acid then place it back inside you. That wasnt my intention so please dont take it that way. The point of everything is to say my side of the story as the way i percieve it and nothing more. However i doubt i will continue if theres no interest.

No, it's a genius... just a genius fabrication if you ask me. Don't worry about it, I happen to be related to the Grinch. You probably couldn't find my heart without a microscope. I thought you might enjoy this.