Caitlyn Jenner wins Arthur Ashe Courage Award at Espy's

[KennedyKiller]

I'm not saying he/she isn't courageous. No matter who you are it takes some sort of courage to make that sort of change and try to live your life relatively normal. I've been saying this from the beginning. I never said this wasn't difficult for him/her. But I'm sure it's not NEAR as difficult as it is for the 17 year old boy living in Small Town Alabama, living with the fear that his dad will beat the unholy **** out of him if he were to ever come out about being "different." However, it still stands that the only reason for his/her nomination is because of the fame. That cannot be denied, and THAT'S my point. Fame had a very big influence on this decision and THAT'S what's unfair to the other people nominated for the award.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

However, it still stands that the only reason for his/her nomination is because of the fame. .

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Bruce Jenner was ever nominated for this particular award...

 

[KennedyKiller]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Bruce Jenner was ever nominated for this particular award...

That doesn't matter. It's pretending they're different people that is moronic. She can be referred to as "She" and that's fine. That's totally her choice, but No matter how you slice it, that human body has a past, and that past is as a famous man. Otherwise nobody on earth would know, or give a damn, about who Caitlyn Jenner is. She never would have been nominated because the public eye wouldn't have been on her. She would be just like any of the other hundreds of people a year that go through the surgery. Tabloids don't focus on people who aren't famous, therefore the story never would have gotten out. So it all boils down to fame.

 

[Hel]

I have to admit I didn't read everything up to this point, but can people please stop saying "he/she" when talking about Caitlyn Jenner? She's a woman now, period. Yes, she used to be a man, but as Queen Elsa puts it, "the past is in the past", and if she, for some reason, stopped being queen at some point in the future, you wouldn't continue calling her "Queen Elsa", would you?

Also, I don't think suicide is selfish at all, because that would imply that we only live our lives to be there for and please others. If I asked you not to kill yourself and keep dealing with whatever insufferable pain you're in, just so I don't have to deal with the pain of losing you, wouldn't that be pretty selfish? If you agree with putting a beloved pet to sleep because prolonging their life would only cause them more physical suffering (which I'm sure most of us do), you can't condemn a person for doing something about their emotional suffering. Instead, be glad you're not in their shoes.

 

[Venomous Oddball]

I have to admit I didn't read everything up to this point, but can people please stop saying "he/she" when talking about Caitlyn Jenner? She's a woman now, period. Yes, she used to be a man, but as Queen Elsa puts it, "the past is in the past", and if she, for some reason, stopped being queen at some point in the future, you wouldn't continue calling her "Queen Elsa", would you?

Also, I don't think suicide is selfish at all, because that would imply that we only live our lives to be there for and please others. If I asked you not to kill yourself and keep dealing with whatever insufferable pain you're in, just so I don't have to deal with the pain of losing you, wouldn't that be pretty selfish? If you agree with putting a beloved pet to sleep because prolonging their life would only cause them more physical suffering (which I'm sure most of us do), you can't condemn a person for doing something about their emotional suffering. Instead, be glad you're not in their shoes.

This. I couldn't have said it better.

 

[KevinStriker]

I'm not really sure I like what this thread has turned into.

 

[KennedyKiller]

I have to admit I didn't read everything up to this point, but can people please stop saying "he/she" when talking about Caitlyn Jenner? She's a woman now, period. Yes, she used to be a man, but as Queen Elsa puts it, "the past is in the past", and if she, for some reason, stopped being queen at some point in the future, you wouldn't continue calling her "Queen Elsa", would you?

Also, I don't think suicide is selfish at all, because that would imply that we only live our lives to be there for and please others. If I asked you not to kill yourself and keep dealing with whatever insufferable pain you're in, just so I don't have to deal with the pain of losing you, wouldn't that be pretty selfish? If you agree with putting a beloved pet to sleep because prolonging their life would only cause them more physical suffering (which I'm sure most of us do), you can't condemn a person for doing something about their emotional suffering. Instead, be glad you're not in their shoes.

I'm going to be continuing to put He/She because, and it seems many of you don't know this, but Caitlyn has NOT had genital surgery. He/She still has male genitalia, and that is something a lot of people miss. It doesn't change anything really, but the fact is there. As for your Queen comment, IDK how it works in the UK, but here in America, it doesn't matter how long the president has been out of the Oval Office, if you are addressing them, directly, you still address them as Mr. President. When talking about them, you generally refer to them as Former President, but I'm not going to talk about "Former Caitlyn" or "Former Bruce." I'm going to use what's correct. Physically, he/she IS a He, and by choice, would like to be called "She" so I'm going to use both.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

but here in America, it doesn't matter how long the president has been out of the Oval Office, if you are addressing them, directly, you still address them as Mr. President.

... no.

According to Robert Hickey, who is Deputy Director of the Protocol School of Washington:

the correct form is "Mr./Ms. Last Name, unless you're writing them a letter in which you include 'Honorable'... "the traditional approach for any office of which there is only one office-holder at a time. So, with officials such as mayors, governors or presidents ... only the current office holder is addressed as Mr. Mayor, Governor, or Mr. President ... formers are not addressed that way.

That's not to say some reporter might not call a former mayor Mayor Smith or a former president President (Surname). But doing so is incorrect and confusing to the public. The former office holder is no longer due the precedence and courtesies we extend to the current office holder. He or she speaks with the authority of a private citizen. We honor former office holder's service, but the 'form of address' -- which acknowledges the responsibilities and duties of office -- belongs only to current office holder.

With offices of which are many office-holders at a time ... senators, admirals, judges, etc. addressing 'formers' with their former honorific not disrespectful to a singular current office holder.
To explain the correct form I would say "using the title of a former position is flattering to the former official and he or she may not correct you, but is not respectful to the current office holder. There's only one "(name of the office)" at a time." -- Robert Hickey

With regards to you insisting on continuing to call Caitlyn 'he/she' - I, frankly, don't see the harm or issue in simply being polite and using the pronouns she'd like to be addressed by. But whatever - it honestly sounds to me like you're just being inconsiderate for the sake of being inconsiderate.

 

[Hel]

I'm going to be continuing to put He/She because, and it seems many of you don't know this, but Caitlyn has NOT had genital surgery. He/She still has male genitalia, and that is something a lot of people miss.

I know that, but gender is so much more than genitals. What do you call someone who is born with both? "It"? Or what if you get to know a woman and find out, after a while, that she used to be a man and still has male genitals - would you make an effort to readjust your habit of using female pronouns only because a part of her body that you can't even see doesn't suit everything else you see of her? Frankly, another person's genitals are none of your business.

As for your Queen comment, IDK how it works in the UK, but here in America, it doesn't matter how long the president has been out of the Oval Office, if you are addressing them, directly, you still address them as Mr. President. [...]

That wasn't really the point. The point is that no matter what a person has been or done in the past, you usually don't cling to it like that. When you talk about Snow White, the orphan girl who fled her castle because her evil stepmother wanted to have her killed for being prettier and then spent some time with seven dwarfs beyond seven hills, you don't say: "Snow White, the orphan girl who fled her castle because ...". You just say Snow White, that's it. Or Queen Snow White, or whatever she is known by nowadays. You're not doing anyone a favour by applying different rules to Caitlyn Jenner, not even yourself because it must get pretty tiring and confusing to use both pronouns all the time when you could just use one.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Caitlyn Jenner deserves the award. She has the courage to live her life the way she wants in spite of all the people who refuse to address her with the appropriate pronoun.

 

[KennedyKiller]

... no.

According to Robert Hickey, who is Deputy Director of the Protocol School of Washington:


With regards to you insisting on continuing to call Caitlyn 'he/she' - I, frankly, don't see the harm or issue in simply being polite and using the pronouns she'd like to be addressed by. But whatever - it honestly sounds to me like you're just being inconsiderate for the sake of being inconsiderate.

It's not for the sake of being inconsiderate though. Whether it looks that way or not. Just the opposite actually. I keep saying he/she because there are parties out there, whether you believe it or not, that don't agree with what he/she did. I'm being impartial because there may be people on here that don't agree, and haven't commented because they may feel attacked because they don't share the same opinion as the majority. I've never met the dude. Or chick. Or whatever. He/She could be an amazing person. That's what counts, how you are as a person. Gender isn't really the issue to begin with. But let's say there is a member here who doesn't agree with it, I'm not going to be the reason they don't feel comfortable talking about this subject because I'm impartial either way. It seems you guys are getting the idea that I'm super anti Sex Changes, or that I'm hating on him/her because he's transgender. I've said multiple times that it's not a problem at all, and that the problem lies with the fact the he/she was famous BEFORE all this happened, and that it was my opinion that that, in itself, made the award show pretty rigged. And that has been my point consistently since I've joined this fun little debate. I'm not afraid to be blunt in my opinions, and then I'm talked to like I'm a bigot. But at the end of the day, my point has been, in nearly EVERY post, that his/her PRIOR FAME, which you CANNOT CHANGE JUST BECAUSE YOU'VE CHANGED YOUR SEX was a major influence.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

It's not for the sake of being inconsiderate though. Whether it looks that way or not. Just the opposite actually. I keep saying he/she because there are parties out there, whether you believe it or not, that don't agree with what he/she did.

And the truth of the matter is that these folks simply shouldn't matter. They can't. As long as she's not hurting anybody, Caitlyn has every right in the world to live her life the way she wants to live her life. These people you are so eager to defend have no right to tell her she can't do what she needs to do in order to make herself happy and healthy. Not a single right in the world. You only get to lead one life - why spend it so eagerly and desperately seeking approval from people you won't ever be able to please and who you probably will never meet in the first place?

If I was dating someone who was really into fat chicks - but I wasn't healthy or happy carrying so much weight, why should what he thinks matter? My health and my happiness matters more than someone else's opinion or what someone else is comfortable with. And if he couldn't respect my decision to lose weight, then all he needs to do is move on with his life. It's as simple as that. Should I keep the weight on to make him happy? And if not, would I continue calling myself fat just to make him more comfortable with the whole situation?

I've never met the dude. Or chick. Or whatever. He/She could be an amazing person. That's what counts, how you are as a person. Gender isn't really the issue to begin with. But let's say there is a member here who doesn't agree with it, I'm not going to be the reason they don't feel comfortable talking about this subject because I'm impartial either way. It seems you guys are getting the idea that I'm super anti Sex Changes, or that I'm hating on him/her because he's transgender. I've said multiple times that it's not a problem at all

KennedyKiller, your refusal to drop the male pronouns shows clearly that you're not totally comfortable with some aspect of it. I'm not saying you are super anti-sex changes and no one else is either - but if you're uncomfortable, just say you're uncomfortable. We're all friends here - you don't have to pretend. I just cannot wrap my head around your claim to be fine with the concept of Jenner's sex-change, while at the same refusing to call her a 'she'. You're saying one thing, and you're 'doing' another. You've given two different reasons now for it and neither of them are terribly compelling.

the problem lies with the fact the he/she was famous BEFORE all this happened, and that it was my opinion that that, in itself, made the award show pretty rigged. And that has been my point consistently since I've joined this fun little debate. I'm not afraid to be blunt in my opinions, and then I'm talked to like I'm a bigot. But at the end of the day, my point has been, in nearly EVERY post, that his/her PRIOR FAME, which you CANNOT CHANGE JUST BECAUSE YOU'VE CHANGED YOUR SEX was a major influence.

YES. WE KNOW. The Espys are broadcasted on ABC, Diane Sawyer works for ABC - it's not difficult to put two and two together. Everyone knows she's famous because she was Bruce Jenner and was married to the Kardashian woman. My refute to you, which I didn't respond to previously because I was taken aback by you throwing the word 'moron' at me, is that we're talking about her because he is now a she. She was deemed courageous because she went through and is continuing to go through that process. Fame alone doesn't grant you an award for being courageous.

 

[KennedyKiller]

And the truth of the matter is that these folks simply shouldn't matter. They can't. As long as she's not hurting anybody, Caitlyn has every right in the world to live her life the way she wants to live her life. These people you are so eager to defend have no right to tell her she can't do what she needs to do in order to make herself happy and healthy. Not a single right in the world. You only get to lead one life - why spend it so eagerly and desperately seeking approval from people you won't ever be able to please and who you probably will never meet in the first place?

If I was dating someone who was really into fat chicks - but I wasn't healthy or happy carrying so much weight, why should what he thinks matter? My health and my happiness matters more than someone else's opinion or what someone else is comfortable with. And if he couldn't respect my decision to lose weight, then all he needs to do is move on with his life. It's as simple as that. Should I keep the weight on to make him happy? And if not, would I continue calling myself fat just to make him more comfortable with the whole situation?


KennedyKiller, your refusal to drop the male pronouns shows clearly that you're not totally comfortable with some aspect of it. I'm not saying you are super anti-sex changes and no one else is either - but if you're uncomfortable, just say you're uncomfortable. We're all friends here - you don't have to pretend. I just cannot wrap my head around your claim to be fine with the concept of Jenner's sex-change, while at the same refusing to call her a 'she'. You're saying one thing, and you're 'doing' another. You've given two different reasons now for it and neither of them are terribly compelling.


YES. WE KNOW. The Espys are broadcasted on ABC, Diane Sawyer works for ABC - it's not difficult to put two and two together. Everyone knows she's famous because she was Bruce Jenner and was married to the Kardashian woman. My refute to you, which I didn't respond to previously because I was taken aback by you throwing the word 'moron' at me, is that we're talking about her because he is now a she. She was deemed courageous because she went through and is continuing to go through that process. Fame alone doesn't grant you an award for being courageous.

Lol, yes. I'm so uncomfortable. I don't go to Touche every Thursday night (A gay bar in town showcasing Drag Pagents) to support 2 of my best friends who do drag. Spending EVERY Thursday night with Drag Queens and Kings. Yes, I'm SUPER uncomfortable with them. No. That's not it. And I'm not DEFENDING anybody who refuses to believe that he is a she now. But, just like he has the right to change, they have the right to be against it, and I'm not going to shove my belief of them being wrong down their throats. I'm not defending it NOR am I advocating it.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

Lol, yes. I'm so uncomfortable. I don't go to Touche every Thursday night (A gay bar in town showcasing Drag Pagents) to support 2 of my best friends who do drag. Spending EVERY Thursday night with Drag Queens and Kings. Yes, I'm SUPER uncomfortable with them. No. That's not it. And

Hah, please.

Anyway, what would people like to see as the new QotW?

 

[Spikeyroxas]

Hah, please.

Anyway, what would people like to see as the new QotW?

Does it have to be based on real life situations or fictional real life based situations?

I've had a dream about this scenario before, but maybe it could be a question of the week.


Your in this scenario:
Doctors during a routine examination had found that you had the potential to have a possible cure within your body to a disease like cancer. However there's only a chance that this could be one bug in order to do the nessasary tests to find out and possibly make a cure is for a post mortem biopsy testing (you have to be deceased).

Bare in mind that this is only a chance, if it was to be successful is could still take many years to mature and manufacture before any effect could be given to the majority.


Would you do it?

 

[La Femme Fatale]

So, your body might have a cure for cancer, but in order for doctors to do the necessary testing, you have to die?

It's an interesting scenario. For me QotW I was intending on discussing news topics and issues pertaining to news, but if people would like to discuss this then I don't see why not.

Anyone else have input?

 

[Dr.Slaughter]

No I hardly think She deserved it. How could any one who is transgender or transexual relate to Jenner anyway? First of all Jenner is filthy ****ing rich and thats the only reason she even was able to bring her attempts to transcending into another gender to fruition was because she HAD the money to make her wishes a reality. Most trans-folk dont have the money to access plastic surgeons capable of providing such feats as recreating someone to be the opposite sex. Unless of course if the c-virus was real..... well anyone who has ever played and beat RE 6 could understand what Im talking about when I say that.

 

[Dr.Slaughter]

 

[KevinStriker]

I've noticed you've been double posting. STAHP

 

[Dr.Slaughter]

wait i have been double posting? Oh wait never mind I just realized you weren't referring to me.

 

[KevinStriker]

wait i have been double posting? Oh wait never mind I just realized you weren't referring to me.

Yes, I was.