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Any Thoughts on the Turkish Coup?

cheezMcNASTY

Entertain me.
Premium
Since I'm sitting in a hotel in Istanbul, I can't help but wonder how it's going to transpire. And also when they'll finish the airport segment of their scuffle so I can skeedaddle off to more stable countries. Alive, preferably.

In my brief visit here, I've definitely seen lots of dislike for their prime minister among the people but I don't think they want to unseat him from power at the expense of democracy (even if he allegedly abused the daylights out of it). Hence the protesting.

I'm also somewhat worried that certain 3rd party groups might take advantage of the chaos to cause more of it. There are very high amounts of refugees here which means THAT organization could attempt something at any time, really.

What are your thoughts?
 
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tremor

4 itchy tasty
Premium
I hope you get back home safely Cheez. There's a lot of BS going on all over the world right now & none of it seems like it's going to get any better, any time soon.
 

Venomous Oddball

Also Known as Maddy
I wish people could all get along. The last couple years, things have just gotten ridiculous.

I hope you get out alright, Cheez.
 

La Femme Fatale

The Queen
Moderator
What in the world are you doing in Istanbul? Cheez, please be careful and get out of there.

I work for the Canadian federal government so we've been receiving periodic updates from Foreign Affairs. I'm no expert on Turkish history but I studied a bit of it back in university, and while this is dangerous, military coups in Turkey have historically been to protect and safeguard secular democracy against religious/Islamic extremism. In this case the military is divided, however. I'm usually against any effort to overthrow a democratically elected government, but it's not like Erdogan himself cares about democracy unless it suits him (which in this case, it does).

I worry for secular democracy and for secularists in Turkey should the government 'win'. Turkey will likely dive deep into extreme Islamic politics... which probably means more bloodshed for many years, not to mention an overpowered Erdogan is downright disastrous for NATO.

We will see. I hope it's resolved quickly. As I said before, please be safe Cheez.
 

cheezMcNASTY

Entertain me.
Premium
I'm fine. As advised by the US consulate I am staying indoors. All flights were cancelled so we'll catch a taxi soon as that funky business sorts its self out.

What in the world are you doing in Istanbul? Cheez, please be careful and get out of there.

Sight seeing? c:

If you're getting regular updates, think you could give the DL? Everything here is either heavily censored or in Turkish. I couldn't post on Facebook to say I was OK until a couple hours ago, for example.

Thanks, Bae <3
 
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Airaku

Stray Jedi
This is just so heart breaking. From around 2008-2013 things were getting good. It seems like the world was getting better should we take the economic issues out of this. People became a little more accepting with the racial issues and now it's ridiculous. I cannot believe the world we live in today. The things that are happening and there seems to be no stopping because no one wants to take a step back and even try to see if any compromises can be made. Yet everyone is so angry. Why would they want to compromise?

It also doesn't help that Donald Trump's words split the nation in half. I actually don't think he even realizes that he's doing that. He even rephrases the same point multiple times but it comes off differently and people interpret things differently.

I know what I'm saying sounds stupid. But there is no compromising even on the streets these days amongst the little guys, it's getting ridiculous and I'm sure it makes us all feel a different type of pain inside.


// Yes I took my sleeping pill while typing this so yeah.... it's not be but it is me at the same time xD


*Hugs you all super tight*

Please be safe and get home @cheezMcNASTY We care for you and I'm very sad to hear that your vacation was destroyed because of these current events. This **** needs to stop :'(
 

La Femme Fatale

The Queen
Moderator
I'm fine. As advised by the US consulate I am staying indoors. All flights were cancelled so we'll catch a taxi soon as that funky business sorts its self out.



Sight seeing? c:

If you're getting regular updates, think you could give the DL? Everything here is either heavily censored or in Turkish. I couldn't post on Facebook to say I was OK until a couple hours ago, for example.

Thanks, Bae <3
Sure, I don't have access to my email over the weekend but I'll let you know what Canada is saying when I get back Monday. Here's is what the Star is saying today, though:
ANKARA, TURKEY — Turkey's state-run news agency says authorities have detained 10 members of Turkey's highest administrative court as the government appeared to press ahead with a purge of judiciary officials with alleged links to a U.S.-based Muslim cleric.

The Anadolu Agency said Saturday that arrest warrants were issued for 48 administrative court members and 140 members of Turkey's appeals court. Earlier, Anadolu said a body overseeing judges and prosecutors in Turkey has dismissed 2,745 judges across Turkey.

Forces loyal to Turkey’s president quashed a coup attempt in a night of explosions, air battles and gunfire that left dozens dead Saturday. Authorities arrested thousands of people as President Recep Tayyip Erdogan vowed those responsible “will pay a heavy price for their treason to Turkey.”

The chaos capped a period of political turmoil in Turkey — a NATO member and key Western ally in the fight against Daesh — which critics blamed on President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s increasingly authoritarian rule. He has shaken up the government, a cracked down on dissidents and opposition media and renewed conflict in the mainly Kurdish areas of the southeast.

Turkey has also been under strain from millions of refugees from the conflict in neighbouring Syria and a series of deadly attacks blamed on Daesh (also known as ISIS) and Kurdish rebels.

Erdogan was on a seaside vacation when tanks moved into the streets of Ankara and Istanbul but flew home early Saturday.

Gen. Umit Dundar, the newly appointed acting chief of the general staff, said officers from the Air Force, the military police and the armoured units were mainly involved in the attempt. The uprising appears not to have been backed by the most senior ranks of the military, and Turkey’s main opposition parties quickly condemned the attempted overthrow of the government.

Turkish Prime Minister Benali Yildirim said 161 people had been killed and 1,440 wounded in the overnight violence. He said 2,839 plotters had been detained.

Yildirim described the night as “dark stain for Turkish democracy” and said the perpetrators “will receive every punishment they deserve.”

Turkey’s NATO allies lined up to condemn the coup. U.S. President Barack Obama urged all sides to support Turkey’s democratically elected government. NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said he spoke to Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu and called for respect for democracy.

The coup attempt began late Friday, with a statement from the military saying it had seized control “to reinstall the constitutional order, democracy, human rights and freedoms, to ensure that the rule of law once again reigns in the country, for law and order to be reinstated.”

Fighter jets buzzed overhead, gunfire erupted outside military headquarters and vehicles blocked two major bridges in Istanbul. Soldiers backed by tanks blocked entry to Istanbul’s airport for a couple of hours before being overtaken by pro-government crowds carrying Turkish flags, according to footage broadcast by the Dogan news agency.

But the military did not appear unified, as top commanders went on television to condemn the action and order troops back to their barracks.

Erdogan, appearing on television over a mobile phone, had urged supporters into the streets to defend the government — and large crowds heeded the call.

People faced off with troops that had blocked the bridges over the Bosporus, linking the Asian and European sides of Istanbul.

In images broadcast on CNN-Turk, dozens of soldiers walked among tanks with their hands held up, surrendering to government forces. Discarded gear was strewn on the ground. Some flag-waving people climbed onto the tanks.

By early Saturday, the putsch appeared to have fizzled out, as police, soldiers and civilians loyal to the government confronted coup plotters.

Colonels and generals implicated in the rebellion were fired and loyal troops rescued the military chief who had been taken hostage at an airbase on the outskirts of Ankara.

Addressing large crowds after landing at Ataturk airport, Erdogan said of the plotters: “They have pointed the people’s guns against the people. The president, whom 52 per cent of the people brought to power, is in charge. This government brought to power by the people is in charge. They won’t succeed as long as we stand against them by risking everything.”

Fighting continued into the early morning, with the sounds of huge blasts echoing across Istanbul and the capital, Ankara, including at least one bomb that hit the parliament complex. Television footage showed images of broken glass and other debris strewn across a lobby leading to the assembly hall.

CNN-Turk said two bombs hit near the presidential palace, killing five people and wounding a number of others.

Prime Minister Yildirim called all legislators for an emergency meeting Saturday, Anadolu reported.

Government officials blamed the coup attempt on a U.S.-based Islamist cleric, Fethullah Gulen.

Yildirim pinned blame on the “parallel terrorist organization” — a term used by authorities to describe Gulen’s movement.

Erdogan has long accused the cleric and his supporters of attempting to overthrow the government. The cleric lives in exile in Pennsylvania and promotes a philosophy that blends a mystical form of Islam with staunch advocacy of democracy, education, science and interfaith dialogue.

Fadi Hakura, a Turkey expert at the Chatham House think-tank, said it was not clear who was behind the attempted coup, but it appeared to have been “carried out by lower-ranking officers — at the level of colonel.”

“Their main gripe seems to have been President Erdogan’s attempt to transform his office into a powerful and centralized executive presidency,” Hakura said.

But, he said, “this coup failed because it lacked popular support, political support and international support.”

Turkey’s military staged three coups between 1960 and 1980 and pressured Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan, a pious Muslim mentor of Erdogan, out of power in 1997.

There have long been tensions between the military — which saw itself as the protector of the secular Turkish state — and Erdogan’s Islamic-influenced AKP party. Erdogan’s government has taken steps, including dismissals and prosecutions of high-ranking active and former officers for alleged coup plots, to bring the military to heel.
 

Romero

Her royal court joker
Moderator
Premium
I work for the Canadian federal government so we've been receiving periodic updates from Foreign Affairs. I'm no expert on Turkish history but I studied a bit of it back in university, and while this is dangerous, military coups in Turkey have historically been to protect and safeguard secular democracy against religious/Islamic extremism. In this case the military is divided, however. I'm usually against any effort to overthrow a democratically elected government, but it's not like Erdogan himself cares about democracy unless it suits him (which in this case, it does).

I worry for secular democracy and for secularists in Turkey should the government 'win'. Turkey will likely dive deep into extreme Islamic politics... which probably means more bloodshed for many years, not to mention an overpowered Erdogan is downright disastrous for NATO.
I must say you are remarkably well informed about a country so far away from you. I know a bit about Turkey, but not much in-depth about the current politics, because Turkey is really far away even for me, and I've not had a reason to study it.

I didn't know Erdogan wanted Turkey to be more islamic, but I'm well aware that he's not particularly democratic aligned.

He have removed/arrested 50 000 people, including thousands of judges and teachers. So fast. It tells me he only waited for an opportunity to remove everybody he doesn't trust or like.

The coup failed, but what now? Surely this is not democracy.

But about NATO, I wouldn't say that Erdogan is disastrous for the alliance. Erdogan is disastrous for his country, but NATO can live with it.
 

cheezMcNASTY

Entertain me.
Premium
Update: I'm out of Turkey.

I find it plausible that yourdoggone staged the whole thing to Garner support of the people and remove people he doesn't like in one fell swoop. A lot of things about the coup seem VERY convenient. As time goes on, I'm feeling more and more the country would have been better off if the military had succeeded. I didn't know they had done coups successfully and regularly in the past and didn't try to control the entire country afterwards. It sounds odd from a western perspective, but if they've done it peacefully in the past and it works for them, who knows?

Mr. Doggone, at the very least, can't be called democratically elected. An Armenian vase salesman with a bone to pick went on and on about his politics which sound identical to those used by corrupt central American governments. Now, I only know specifics for one central American country but as it happens, that country's president resigned this past year when the entire country began protesting and going on strike. That's right. I'm talking about Guatemala. I'll put these tactics in spoilers since this is getting long.

1. The majority of both Guatemala and Turkey's population and voting power lies in heavily impoverished, undereducaTed rural communities. They receive no aid most of the time and suffer except for election time. Candidates deliver them food and other BASIC necessities in exchange for their vote. Once elected, they let them continue to let them starve so they are plenty hungry come next election season. This bribery allows them to bypass the informed urban populace that wouldn't vote for them in exchange for 10 acres and a mule.

2. Controlling the press. No further explanation required.

3. Lavish lifestyle that does not match the wealth of the population.

4. Shameless disregard for human rights when it's convenient. France recently suspended the UN human rights convention while in a state of emergency for a few days/weeks. This was not done lightly and the duration was clearly as short as possible. Following their example, doggyllama declared a 3 MONTH state of emergency and declared he would suspend human rights for the entire period. Everyone's eyebrows are raised by this. It is the essence of Shameless and he is straining western alliances with his brazenness. Following this, he is arresting people en masse and making Turkey look like a police state.
 
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BeatTheGG

The true last hope.
The worlds gone to hell hasn't it? :sad: A friend of mine from work says this happens every 20 plus years or something like that. Is there some truth behind this?

I'm a little late to this topic I have to apologize. How are things on your end now cheezMcNASTY? I know you're out of Turkey now. Glad to hear you got around safely. How often do you visit Turkey? Do you have any familial ties?
 

cheezMcNASTY

Entertain me.
Premium
The worlds gone to hell hasn't it? :sad: A friend of mine from work says this happens every 20 plus years or something like that. Is there some truth behind this?

I'm a little late to this topic I have to apologize. How are things on your end now cheezMcNASTY? I know you're out of Turkey now. Glad to hear you got around safely. How often do you visit Turkey? Do you have any familial ties?
1. Your friend is correct. The military doesn't answer to the Turkish government at all and will stage a coup if they feel the government is not secular enough or otherwise incompetent. Your friend is also correct on the rough frequency this has happened for the last 75 or so years.

2. I'm fine. No familial ties to Turkey. I just happened to be visiting for the first time. And thanks.
 

Romero

Her royal court joker
Moderator
Premium
I don't buy the conspiracy theory that the coup was staged, I don't know for certain but I believe it was real. If Erdogan wanted his army to stage a coup, how would he pull it off? It seems impossibly complicated as it involves so many helpers. How do you make your officers to willingly ruin their future? If it was fake, they would still need to punish everybody involved. Or pretend to punish them, but that too is pretty much impossible to pull off because so many people are involved.

I'm not in favor of coups, but sometimes a coup seems not so much worse than the "democracy".
 

KevinStriker

"Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?"
I don't buy the conspiracy theory that the coup was staged, I don't know for certain but I believe it was real. If Erdogan wanted his army to stage a coup, how would he pull it off? It seems impossibly complicated as it involves so many helpers. How do you make your officers to willingly ruin their future? If it was fake, they would still need to punish everybody involved. Or pretend to punish them, but that too is pretty much impossible to pull off because so many people are involved.

I'm not in favor of coups, but sometimes a coup seems not so much worse than the "democracy".

Who said that the coup was staged?
 

cheezMcNASTY

Entertain me.
Premium
I don't buy the conspiracy theory that the coup was staged, I don't know for certain but I believe it was real. If Erdogan wanted his army to stage a coup, how would he pull it off? It seems impossibly complicated as it involves so many helpers. How do you make your officers to willingly ruin their future? If it was fake, they would still need to punish everybody involved. Or pretend to punish them, but that too is pretty much impossible to pull off because so many people are involved.

I'm not in favor of coups, but sometimes a coup seems not so much worse than the "democracy".
If he is in cahoots with higher ups in the military, he could have them initiate talk of a coup within their ranks and plan accordingly. He could know roughly how many soldiers are plotting and when they plan to strike. He could plant defectors in certain groups and sabotage their efforts.

1. I find it very strange the military would just open fire on the palace unless they believed it was where he was. It seems the first step of having a coup is to find out where the leader will be on the night in question and plan a LARGE part solely around it. Could be leaked misinformation.

2. I find it odd that he HAPPENED to be out of the country when the coup occurred. The military had control of the airport with heavy tanks, yet he not only decided to fly into the airport, he even landed safely into the arms of loving citizens. What happened to the military control? How the police dismantled a defense with freakin' TANKS using no heavy weapons or explosives is beyond. Me.

3. I was at the airport and saw no evidence of gunfire or struggle. No corpses, no ambulances. No destruction no bullet holes no shell casings. No police (the victors) looked remotely traumatized and there were soldiers hanging out inside the airport freely with automatic weapons. How could two groups who were trying to kill one another 3 hours ago be mingling so freely now? Armed? Neither putting the other in custody?

I realize the third point is personal observation and therefore very susceptible to bias, but to me the whole thing stinks.
 
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BeatTheGG

The true last hope.
1. Your friend is correct. The military doesn't answer to the Turkish government at all and will stage a coup if they feel the government is not secular enough or otherwise incompetent. Your friend is also correct on the rough frequency this has happened for the last 75 or so years.

2. I'm fine. No familial ties to Turkey. I just happened to be visiting for the first time. And thanks.
Is that right? Wow I can't imagine being in the middle of that. I just hope there aren't to many innocent casualties. There usually are during these kinds of things it seems. Have you visited Turkey before now? Do you think it will get too bad for tourist at some point?

Oh I see then, and you're welcome. I know it's probably odd of me to ask but... did you enjoy you trip otherwise? :paranoid:
 

Romero

Her royal court joker
Moderator
Premium
Who said that the coup was staged?
I don't know who said it, but many enough apparently have said it for it being mentioned in the news. But at the same time it was mentioned, it was dismissed as [insert word for unbelievable].
 
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