Debating crime and punishment

[Romero]

1. What should be the maximum punishment for crimes?
2. Any examples of crimes that should lead to that punishment?
3. What is the maximum punishment where you live, and what do you think about it?
4. Is torture under any circumstances okay? Why, or why not?
5. If you answer "yes" on #4, under what circumstances?


1. Death sentence by hanging. Preferably public. Possibly also hanged, drawn and quartered.

2. Serial murder, arson, sexual crimes against children, spamming, creating malware, terrorism, serial rape, narcotics (large amounts), high treason, and probably everything that leads to 15 years prison or more under the current Norwegian law.

3. The maximum sentence for any crime in Norway is 21 years. Very few criminals get sentenced to 21 years, but the ones who do, have usually killed someone, raped underage persons, or committed arson. And 1 prison year is not a full year, I believe it's 9 months. 21 x 9 = 189 months, and 189 months is 15.75 years real time. A killer may get as little as 10 years and get out after just a few years real time. And because our prisons are like hotels minus the freedom, the punishments are more like forced holiday.

But there is one exception, after 2001, criminals who are deemed dangerous and sane, and are likely to repeat the crime, can be sentenced to containment. Example: A criminal can be sentenced to 10 years + 10 years containment. Containment can be a finite time after the prison sentence as in the example, or it can be containment alone. The duration of containment can be anything from some years to indefinite. If indefinite, the subject will be judged every 5 years. The containment can theoretically be life-long.

In case of insanity, the offender can be sentenced to medical containment, but this is legally not a punishment, and secure "hospitals" are being used instead of normal prisons.

My thoughts about it, is that the level of punishment is ridiculous. The purpose of prison time is to make criminals better and to offer them education. I want much harder punishments and I think we should start to abandon the idea that everybody can be changed to the better. For serious crimes, prisons should rather be used to keep the criminal off the street. Don't offer them education, just offer them food and a minimum of health care. And the standard of the prisons has to be lowered from 3 star hotels to something more medieval. Foreign criminals do really think of our prisons as hotels and they have no fears of committing crimes here.

4. I'm a bit torn on this. I'm generally against torture because it's evil. But I there is one exception where I think evil can be justified.

5. I would like to torture spammers and creators of malware before they are hanged, drawn and quartered. I would not personally quarter them, but after considering it, I would personally torture them and look them into their eyes while doing it. As far as I'm concerned, the only right a professional spammer has, is to suffer before death. I could not pull the legs of an insect. But the nails of spammers and malware writers? Hell YES. (Extreme? Fighting an endless amount of spam through many years can do that to you.)

Discussion unleashed!

PS: I don't mind if you call be barbaric for some of my opinions, it is almost expected. I stand by my opinions and it's a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[mjk321]

1. depends on the crime, if it's so bad: the death sentence, since jails are just free housing for people.
2. murder, rape, terrorism, etc
3. maximum in Saudi is... if the authorities remembers you're in prison and already done your sentence then until that time (I know, it's bad) but usually the highest form of punishment is public beheading, but that's usually reserved for crimes in #2.

highest punishment for robbery (if it fulfills 6 conditions, not gonna go into details though) is cutting the right hand from the wrist. if it doesnt fulfill those conditions then it's up to the judge.

adultery, it depends on the person (married/unmarried): the married person gets the death sentence, single person will receive 60 lashes with the whip. unless it's not consensual (aka rape) then it's the death sentence.

consuming intoxicants - drugs, alcohol, etc- is 80 lashes with the whip.

anything else is up to the judge, I just listed what I know of the Islamic punishments for certain crimes, which Saudi follows.

4. no, no torturing required. a person does his crime, gets punished for it, that's it. no need for extra grief, he paid his price.

 

[Romero]

3. maximum in Saudi is... if the authorities remembers you're in prison and already done your sentence then until that time (I know, it's bad) but usually the highest form of punishment is public beheading, but that's usually reserved for crimes in #2.

You mean the authorities may forget when the prisoner has done his time? The prisoner would not forget and let them know, so it means they just ignore him? That would be the same as disrespecting the court...

highest punishment for robbery (if it fulfills 6 conditions, not gonna go into details though) is cutting the right hand from the wrist. if it doesnt fulfill those conditions then it's up to the judge.

Wooha! Really!? Wow. I didn't know you use dismemberment as punishment. But is it actually being used, or is it just an old form of punishment that exists on paper only?
I'm not sure what I think about cutting off the hand, it sounds.... I don't know? But they don't use that hand in another robbery!

adultery, it depends on the person (married/unmarried): the married person gets the death sentence, single person will receive 60 lashes with the whip. unless it's not consensual (aka rape) then it's the death sentence.

consuming intoxicants - drugs, alcohol, etc- is 80 lashes with the whip.

anything else is up to the judge, I just listed what I know of the Islamic punishments for certain crimes, which Saudi follows.

4. no, no torturing required. a person does his crime, gets punished for it, that's it. no need for extra grief, he paid his price.

For the most part I don't have a problem with Saudi punishments, but I do have a problem with when you are issuing those punishments. I don't think adultery should be a felony (serious crime) at all, yes it is really bad, but not a felony.

Isn't about 50 whip lashes enough to kill someone?


I don't know what you think about the various Saudi punishments? I may perhaps disagree with you, but I still respect your opinions. Is it by the way safe for you to post exactly what you think, if that is criticism of Saudi law? I'm unsure of how much/little freedom of speech you have in SA, but I do know that it is more restricted than in Western Europe. I see that your IP is Japanese, but that doesn't necessarily mean you are in Japan. You could be anywhere using a Japanese proxy.

Is not stoning one of the Saudi punishments? Or is that in Iran? I think stoning is terrible and I would not want it even for spammers.


I'd say that whipping people is torture, and although I say that I would volunteer to torture spammers and malware makers, I would probably chicken out before doing it. I don't know how I would react, but I do hate them that much. Maybe Donald Trump would waterboard them for me.

The reason why I hate cyber criminals so much, is that they are causing so much grief to everyone connected to the Internet. The problem is huge, and it's caused by cowards sitting on a chair somewhere. If you are a cyber criminal, stop doing it and go and physically rob someone instead. It's more honest and less despicable than spamming or making malware.

 

[mjk321]

You mean the authorities may forget when the prisoner has done his time? The prisoner would not forget and let them know, so it means they just ignore him? That would be the same as disrespecting the court...



Wooha! Really!? Wow. I didn't know you use dismemberment as punishment. But is it actually being used, or is it just an old form of punishment that exists on paper only?
I'm not sure what I think about cutting off the hand, it sounds.... I don't know? But they don't use that hand in another robbery!



For the most part I don't have a problem with Saudi punishments, but I do have a problem with when you are issuing those punishments. I don't think adultery should be a felony (serious crime) at all, yes it is really bad, but not a felony.

Isn't about 50 whip lashes enough to kill someone?


I don't know what you think about the various Saudi punishments? I may perhaps disagree with you, but I still respect your opinions. Is it by the way safe for you to post exactly what you think, if that is criticism of Saudi law? I'm unsure of how much/little freedom of speech you have in SA, but I do know that it is more restricted than in Western Europe. I see that your IP is Japanese, but that doesn't necessarily mean you are in Japan. You could be anywhere using a Japanese proxy.

Is not stoning one of the Saudi punishments? Or is that in Iran? I think stoning is terrible and I would not want it even for spammers.


I'd say that whipping people is torture, and although I say that I would volunteer to torture spammers and malware makers, I would probably chicken out before doing it. I don't know how I would react, but I do hate them that much. Maybe Donald Trump would waterboard them for me.

The reason why I hate cyber criminals so much, is that they are causing so much grief to everyone connected to the Internet. The problem is huge, and it's caused by cowards sitting on a chair somewhere. If you are a cyber criminal, stop doing it and go and physically rob someone instead. It's more honest and less despicable than spamming or making malware.

if the criminal can't take the whole lashing in one day, they will not do it in one day, they will lash him till he cant handle it and continue later.

marriage is a really big thing in Islam, so adultery is naturally a really big thing and needs to be punished for social harmony.

I'm just reciting what I know about Islamic punishment, so I'm not really criticizing anybody

also, I'm Saudi but living in Japan, that's why I have a Japanese proxy

the stoning is real, it's for the adulterer that are married, hence what I said about a death sentence.

and the free speech thing is something that people who's anti-islam/saudi just preach to antagonize us, but anything against the royal family, even a little criticism, will be punished though. but my personal opinion about them, or atleast the kings are they have done a wonderful job in ruling the country. if you compare Saudi in the 50's, 60's or even the 80's and now, you can easily see the difference.

 

[Romero]

I know you were not criticizing anybody, I just asked if you could post your opinions on Saudi laws without risk, if your opinions happened to criticize Saudi laws. You recited laws without saying what you personally think about the laws, that's why I asked. What you can say without risk not only depends on in which country you are, it also depends on who you are and your plans for your future.

I find some of the Saudi punishments shocking and I'm glad I don't live under the same laws. But I live in my world and I'll leave to the Saudi people to judge what is right for them.
About adultery, since marriage is so important in Islam, isn't the shame of being caught cheating very big? I would think the shame alone is a heavy punishment. And even if that was not enough, there is a long way from there to whipping or capital punishment.

With that severe penalties, I guess you have little crime in SA? I know the crime rates are very low in Japan, and they don't have that severe punishments. They have something special though: Japanese code of honor/morale!

 

[mjk321]

With that severe penalties, I guess you have little crime in SA? I know the crime rates are very low in Japan, and they don't have that severe punishments. They have something special though: Japanese code of honor/morale!

unfortunately, human are humans after all, and the crime rates are not low (kinda wish they were, since we're supposed to be the authority on Islam after all ).

edit: forgot to add this. the Islamic punishments are there to scare you off doing the crimes in the first place.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

1. What should be the maximum punishment for crimes?
2. Any examples of crimes that should lead to that punishment?
3. What is the maximum punishment where you live, and what do you think about it?
4. Is torture under any circumstances okay? Why, or why not?
5. If you answer "yes" on #4, under what circumstances?

1. I'm hesitant to say the death penalty, but I do support it under one circumstance.

2. Genocide.

3. The maximum sentence in Canada is life in prison with a parole ineligibility period of 25 years which you'd receive for high treason, first-degree murder, or second degree murder by an offender who was previously convicted of murder. This sentence is mandatory - there's no getting out on good behaviour. You may still get life in prison for other offences, but beyond those three stipulations your sentence depends on the judge.

I do think that we are a bit too light... there have several cases where dangerous people get out after a decade or so in prison because they've struct a plea deal with authorities and provided information about the case. Karla Homolka comes to mind. So it does have some serious issues, but I much prefer it to a lot of what has been mentioned here. I think criminal punishment for adultery is absurd.

Why I'm extremely limited in my support for the death penalty is this - thousands of men have been executed throughout history, only to have been exonerated and found innocent long after their deaths. This is unequivocally unacceptable and I'm very passionate about it. I would rather 100 criminals go free than to execute a single innocent person. In the case where the inmate has already been executed, I would charge the prosecutors involved AND the accusers in the original case with manslaughter. If they were alive when they were released, I think the government should pay $1 million for each year they were imprisoned, and 50% of the income/wages of the prosecutors involved and the accusers should be garnished and given to the exonerated individual for however long he served in prison. I believe that's fair.

4. Yes, it's 'evil'. I think that part is unquestionable. It might be necessary in some situations, although all I know is if you torture me long enough I'll tell you I went back in time and singlehandedly sunk the Titanic.

5. Only in 'ticking time bomb' situations. You have the criminal in custody, and someone's life immediately depends on him giving you information regarding that person's whereabouts, for instance. Then yes, do what you have to do to get that other person home safely. But I don't think it should be used vindictively to punish people - as much as I'd love to force animal abusers to take the place of animals in medical experimentation and what not! At the end of the day, it's the duty of my country to show those people that WE are better than them. That even though they behaved like a complete and utter waste of perfectly good oxygen, that this society as a whole is better, and far more civilized than they could ever be. That's why I'm happy to live in the country where I do. I do believe in harsher punishments (in that I believe when you are sent to jail you are there to serve your time, not watch tv) but I don't believe in crossing the line into cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[Romero]

I think I needed to get out some steam here, now that I have said that I want to torture spammers, I don't have the desire to do it any more, the thought of it makes me sick. But I really do want them hanged, just without torture beforehand.

edit: forgot to add this. the Islamic punishments are there to scare you off doing the crimes in the first place.

But since the crime rate is not low in SA, the punishments are failing on that point...

Why I'm extremely limited in my support for the death penalty is this - thousands of men have been executed throughout history, only to have been exonerated and found innocent long after their deaths. This is unequivocally unacceptable and I'm very passionate about it. I would rather 100 criminals go free than to execute a single innocent person. In the case where the inmate has already been executed, I would charge the prosecutors involved AND the accusers in the original case with manslaughter. If they were alive when they were released, I think the government should pay $1 million for each year they were imprisoned, and 50% of the income/wages of the prosecutors involved and the accusers should be garnished and given to the exonerated individual for however long he served in prison. I believe that's fair.

I agree on everything here. Much of the problem can be avoided by requiring stronger proof before sentencing someone to death. But in principle, if you could be absolutely 100% sure that the accused person was guilty, would you allow death penalty if they had done a terrible crime? It sounds to me like you don't have a problem with the death penalty, just that the wrong people can get it.

Some weeks ago, a case came up here where a man had raped a 2 year old boy. I think anyone doing things like that deserves to hang.



Edit
When you say sentenced to life in prison, does that literally mean they are meant to spend the rest of their life there? In Norway, Sweden and Denmark (and possibly other countries), being "sentenced for life" doesn't mean life literally. To be "sentenced for life" means the maximum which is around 20-25 years in these countries.

So if you do use the term "life", please state if that means life literally, or as in some countries where it means X number of years.

 

[mjk321]

But since the crime rate is not low in SA, the punishments are failing on that point...

http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/country_result.jsp?country=Saudi+Arabia
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/profiles/Saudi-Arabia/Crime
http://www.csmonitor.com/1981/1230/123039.html
according to these websites, we're pretty down the list.

 

[Romero]

http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/country_result.jsp?country=Saudi+Arabia
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/profiles/Saudi-Arabia/Crime
http://www.csmonitor.com/1981/1230/123039.html
according to these websites, we're pretty down the list.

Saudi Arabia is doing well and I think many countries could learn a few things.

It's interesting to see that Somalia, a country famous for being lawless, according to numbeo.com have less crime (ranked 29) than Mongolia (ranked 23) I wonder how reliable the list is, this is hard to believe.

Norway is also near the bottom of the list (ranked 96) so we are doing pretty well.
But look at South Korea! They beat everybody, even the Japanese!